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I've been making a stirred curd version of farm house cheddar and have not been able to get the curds to knit, when I take it out of the mold it just falls apart...delicious as cheese curds but I'd really like to try aging it in a wheel.

My method is to take raw cows milk and heat to 145F for 30mins, chill to 86F and add culture (MA11/MA 4001) and let sit for an hour.
Add calcium chloride and stir, then add in rennet and stir it in, let it sit an hour.
Then I cut curds into  about 1/2in to 1in pieces vertically, let sit for 5 and cut horizontally, and wait for 5 again before starting to stir.
Then I increase the heat slowly to 100F over 30 minutes stirring gently the whole time. Then I let the curds pitch over 10 to 15 mins before starting to drain the whey.
once I get the whey down to the level of the curds I start putting it in a hoop while sitting in whey and maintaining temp, after a few minutes I take it out and put a small 10lb weight on it for 30, turn and put a 20lb weight on it for 30, turn and put a 40/50lb weight on it over night.
Everytime I turn it the curds obviously  come away from the body of the cheese and sometimes just breaks apart into small curd pieces. It's just so dry it won't knit.

What could I be doing wrong? I've looked at Rikki's recipe and Graciallas' recipe and while I'm capable of doing a more complicated version I really like the ease of stirred curd...suggestions? And no, I havent been checking pH....

Hi Goatgirl,

Welcome to the forum - this is definitely the place to come for help, ideas, commiseration, encouragement, and general "cheese fellowship"!

Two thoughts on your cheddar. First, I'm not seeing a "stirred curd" phase in your recipe - usually that involves stirring the curds after they have been drained of whey, but before salting. This is an alternative to a true cheddaring phase, where the curds are stacked and turned periodically. In either case, the goal is to let the curds reach an acidity of approximately 5.3-5.4 pH. That said, I would predict that the recipe you have described will produce tasty cheese in the cheddar-ish range, even if it is not entirely a true cheddar.

The second thought, more relevant to your actual question, is that unless you are making a very small cheese, you are probably going to need more pressure to get the curds to knit. Cheddars are much harder to get a good knit than something like an Asiago or parma or Gouda. The salting of the curd before pressing makes the curds much less inclined to stick together. When I make cheddars using just under 4 gallons of milk, I generally work up to a final pressing weight of 300 lbs.

QuoteThe salting of the curd before pressing makes the curds much less inclined to stick together.

Yes the curd goes very hard and won't stick.  Cheese cloth helps it knit.  A room temp of 20-25C.  You need a lot of weight for cheddar as mentioned and I generally press it for at least 18 hours.  An initial press with half weight for an hour or two, turn, then press with full weight for 18-24 hours with a turn in the middle.

What exactly do you mean by "Then I let the curds pitch over 10 to 15 mins before starting to drain the whey"?

Hey Stinky,  FYI

To "pitch" : a term used to describe when curd is left to settle in the vat, without the whey being drained. The curd might be pressed under the whey with weights or left to compact on its own. *

*Gianaclis Caldwell book "mastering artisan cheesemaking" pg 52/53

Thanks, but I'm just wondering what was going on with temperature during this time. Can you describe what you did?

sorry about not getting back to you all. Thanks for writing and trying to help.

Room temp...that's hard as our summers don't get much above 70F so if the cheese calls for a warm room I usually move on to the next recipe.

Pitching is just letting the curds rest and sink to the bottom of the pot/vat. And don't know what to say about temp question...I just keep it at 86F and then raise it to 100F over 30 mins a few degrees at a time until it reaches temp...then drain, salt & hoop.

The stirring part...thought it was stirring for 30 minutes with the whey, not as a drained curd. At least the instructions I'm following don't say to drain curds and then stir. You just stir with the whey for 30, then drain and toss in a hoop. I"m just following a farmhouse cheddar recipe someone wrote down for me...should invest in a book I guess and see what other recipes are out there.

As to weight there is no way I can get over 50lbs of weight...I've got a good press but not that good.

I do make a nice tomme now, it's a little dry and crumbles when I slice it but it's an acceptable cheese with cheddar flavor and a hint of blue on the rind, not a bad cheese at all. I do either cow or goat. I've got a bunch of them aging in the cave now and think it's time to tackle something else.  Going to try a camebert, which will probably be a bluebert since I'm batteling a blue infestation now in my 'cave'...just a modified freezer with a temp dial the refer guy put in for me.

I can make feta, chevre, fromage blanc, queso fresco, and now tomme all day....just haven't been able to do a decent aged wheel that is easily sliced. Practice makes perfect but it's slow going when you have to wait two to three months to see if you made a mistake or not!!

got a ph meter, the kind that looks like a very fat pen, I'm starting with milk that reads about 6.4 after pasteurizing and gets down to about 5.6 after curd are cut. I did find out that our well water is 8.2pH so I started using distilled water to dilute my rennet.

GG

While I have made traditional Cheddars, I have not done the stirred curd variety but, looking at a few recipes, I think I can add some suggestions to those made already.
60 minutes could be a little long after renneting. I would suggest that you try the flocculation method with a 3.5x multiplier to determine coagulation time.
None of the recipes I've looked at involve pressing under whey. They all call for draining the whey before pressing. I also note that you do not mention milling and salting the curds at all, which seem to be common steps for this style.
If the room temperature is not high enough for some steps, I often put the cheese over a large basin of warm water with a towel over the top. In the pressing phase I will set the press up over the basin. This seems to work quite well.
With due respect to Andy, I would be a little more optimistic than him about your ability to make a cheddar without going to extreme pressures. My last Cheddar did not go over 70 lbs. in a 6 1/2" mould but I did press it for a total of 46 hours. You could probably increase the press weights and times in the early part of the process to get the curds to start knitting before you try turning them. You can judge the correct weight by observing the whey coming from the mould. It should ooze out rather than run and it should be clear or slightly milky. If you get a fast run of very milky whey, reduce the weight.

Hi GG, Read your posts a couple times, Yes, all the suggestions make sense, still it should nit. I agree with the clan member that mentioned using cloth.

I'll have to read this again, the curd is even warm when you began pressing, that should help.

I have to go think about this.

Richard

Well, been thinking about it~ as you stir the curd it's loosing moisture of course, you mentioned how dry the curd is~ I'd cut down the stirring time, it has to be the almost complete lack of whey, awake mention the use of 300lbs~I'm guessing because of how dry the curd is.



I never use near that weight, more like 40 at most.

Goat girl     Now that you have a ph meter you should be cutting your curd at about 6.3 to 6.4   You mentioned 5.4 , if that was not a typo , then that is way too low .  I know you mentioned milk at 6.4 already  so I see a few options here for you , make a starter up the night before 1 cup of milk and a little culture left on the counter overnight or in the oven with the light on , add to  warm milk stir well  then add rennet straight away and proceed as normal . This should keep you above 6.2  . If not try adding some of that 8 ph water befor you even start to get the milk up to 6.6 .

Another thing I noticed in the first post is the heating of the milk to 145 , what is the ph before and after this stage ? 

All of the above is assuming you have the ph meter calibrated with the correct test fluid . ?

And for sure you should be hooping a tomme above 6 ph ,  6.2 is even better . That could be part of you crumbly issue though not all of it .  If you still get a rapid ph fall try using a washing as you are stirring the curds  and some of that ph 8 water will help as a wash.  That should slow down the ph drop and give you time to get the curds to the correct firmness .

Linuxboy has a tomme recipe on here some where that is spot on and it has ph markers , it also has a washing option .

Andrew, I'm impressed you can get a good knit in a cheddar with only 70 lbs of pressure - but 46 hours may have something to do with that.

GoatGirl, when you say you have a press but not that good a press ... can you elaborate on what you have? Is it a lever style press, or one that uses direct weights, or ??

Greetings, Like to talk more about weight. With a scale under the down post of my press and 7 1/2 lbs of weights on the arm, the scale measures just under 30 lbs of pressure. Am I measuring incorrectly?

I get a very good knit on Cheddar at much less weight than I hear spoken of here.

I guess I'll discuss this on another thread.

Quote from: valley ranch on October 10, 2016, 02:27:11 AM
With a scale under the down post of my press and 7 1/2 lbs of weights on the arm, the scale measures just under 30 lbs of pressure. Am I measuring incorrectly?

That sounds right to me. The other factors to be considered are the length of pressing and the diameter of the mould. The smaller the mould, the greater the pressure for a given weight. On that basis there is a case for discussing pressures in PSI or kg/m2, rather than weights.
That then raises the interesting question of whether pressure is the same for all cheese sizes. It may seem logical to assume that that is the case but, given some of the extreme pressures used commercially, I have doubts. Bottom line though, is that I do not know.

Thanks that seems right.

Valley, to elaborate on Andrew's response, it sounds like you are using a lever press with a 4:1 mechanical advantage - thus, whatever weight is on the end is multiplied by 4 at the ram.

But as Andrew notes, the next question is what that translates into as far as psi; that is a function of the weight applied at the ram divided by the surface area of the cheese. So, for a 6" diameter mold, the surface area is πr^2 = π x 3^2 = 3.14 x 9 = a bit more than 28 square inches. So 30 pounds at the ram, applied to 28 square inches, translates to just over 1 psi.