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Caerphilly is Sour at 3 Weeks

Started by Raz21, April 01, 2018, 11:35:16 AM

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Raz21

I just opened a 3 weeks old Caerphilly and the texture was a little bit buttery, the taste was SOUR and yeasty – especially near the rind. It seems a bit bitter too. I need to mention that yeast grown on the surface of the cheese.  What do you think that can be improved/modified? The recipe is below. I would highly appreciate any comments/critique.
Note: I do not have a pH meter.

The recipe followed was this:
•   6 L Whole Milk H&P – store milk
•   Milk to 90 F (32C)
•   130-140 ml mother culture, mesophilic culture (LL, LLC, LLD and LMC)
•   ½ tsp CaCl2
•   Calf rennet 1 ml (150 IMCU)
•   Floc time = 18 min and multiplier of 3x (90 F)
•   Curd cut to 6 mm
•   Heal for 10 min
•   Stir for 20 min at 90 F
•   Warm up to 92 F
•   Stir for 40 min at 92 F
•   Put curd in cloth and let it drain for 10 min
•   Cut the curd in 2.5 cm pieces and put them in the pot
•   Place pot in warm water for 45 min and stir every 10-15 min
•   Cut curd in small pieces
•   Add 1.5 Tsp salt
•   Press from 10 to 35 lbs
•   10 lbs for 10 mins
•   Turn and salt. 10 lbs for 10 min
•   Turn and salt. 25 lbs for 20 min
•   Turn and salt. 25 lbs for 20 min
•   Turn and salt. 35 lbs or more for 16 hours
•   Total press time about 17 hours at temps between 60-68 F (16-20 C)
•   Matured for 3 weeks at 52 F (11 C). Washed with wine brine for the first 12 days. Yeast smell was developed after the first week. It started to reduce in the last few days before opening.

A few questions:
What would have happened if I would have kept it un-opened for longer?
What can I do to avoid the yeast taste? Is the yeast taste going away with more aging?
Is the sour taste of high acidity? Which part of the preparation process could have produced high acidity?


Thewitt

Here's my recipe. Lots of differences.  Not sure why you have a yeast smell unless there was contamination. Yeasts can be very aggressive.
----
2 gallons of whole milk
1/8 tsp mesophilic culture
1/2 tsp calcium chloride in 1/4 cup water
1/2 tsp liquid rennet in 1/4 cup water
2 tbsp cheese salt
----
Heat the milk to 89°
Add calcium chloride and stir
Add culture, wait to rehydrate, stir well
    Wait for 30 minutes to ripen
Add rennet, stir less than 1 minute
    Wait 40 minutes for a clean break
Cut the curd to 1/4"
    Let the curd heal 5 minutes
Stir gently for 10 minutes while heating to 91°
Stir for 40 minutes making sure they do not mat
    Let it rest for 5 minutes to consolidate
Pour through cheese cloth colander
Let it drain for 5 minutes
Push out a little water
Cut into 1" slabs
    Stack them on top of each other for 5 minutes
    Reverse the stack and wait 5 minutes
    Re-stack again for 5 minutes
Mill the curd into thumbnail sized pieces and add the salt
Fill the cheese cloth lined mold
Press at 10# for 10 minutes
Flip the cheese over and cover with salt all over
Press at 10# for 10 minutes
Flip the cheese over and cover with salt all over
Press at 15# for 20 minutes
Flip the cheese over and cover with salt all over
Press at 15# for 16 hours
Air dry for 3-4 days
Put into ripening box for 3 weeks turning several times a week

River Bottom Farm

The yeast comes in with the wine in your wash brine. Either add more salt to the brine to begin with to try and kill the yeast in the wine or exlude the wine and either add PLA to a salt brine or just start with salt and water and wait for the b linens to come from your environment (usually takes 3 or 4 days unless your aging area is really sterile then it will take longer). The wine is recommended by many to help introduce b linens but isn't critical to getting b linens to grow. As for the your taste you mentioned it was mainly close to the rind so likely it is something introduced in the wash. The taste may leave if you could rub the yeast with salt and kill it off and get the linens going better.

panamamike

I was typing about the same as RBF when he posted so will not lesve my original comment.
The one thing I do want to ask you, were you going for a B linen rind or just a natural rind?

Raz21

Thanks for the replies.

Now I have the following cheeses in my cave, from the oldest, 3 weeks, to the newest, 2 days ago:

Gouda (had yeast for a week and now some B. linens developed but very slightly)
Caerphilly (the same as for gouda)
Colby (the cheese is all red/pink and a lot of B. Linens have developed)
Monterey Jack (the same as Colby)
Baby Swiss (this is in the eye formation stage at 21-23 deg. C)
Manchego (no rind on this one yet)
Tomme (no rind on this one yet, but I would like to develop a natural rind here)


To be frank, I am not that sure which rind to choose for which cheese because I do not know the taste/texture differences in the final product.

A few more questions:
1. Do I need to have molds/yeast before B. linens start growing? that is what I read
2. Then, how do you avoid the yeast taste? If I stop the yeast growth fast enough, the taste will not be present?
3. How do I keep the B. linens growing?
4. How do a produce a natural rind and avoid B. linens from growing?
5. What taste/texture will the B. linens give to the cheese?
6. What taste/texture will the natural rind give the cheese?

Thanks again for all the useful information! highly appreciated

panamamike

This is only my opinion, but I would wash my cheeses with a simple brine solution let the outside dry and wax with cheese wax or vac pack them if you want a clean rind on your cheese. If you don't hgave access to wax or vac pack machine, you could coat them with olive oil.
When I was young colby was waxed. The only way I saw monterey jack was vac packed. Tomme and manchego should have a natural rind that you can wash with the simple brine solution to keep the mold and yeasts off or brush the rind, but many people wax or vac them. Gouda is ether waxed or coated with cream wax. you can essentialy coat any cheese.
As for the B. linens, it takes high humidity to grow. When you protect the rind with wax or vac you no longer have to worry about the humidity on these cheeses as the wrapping will keep the humidity it needs in and air out.

panamamike

Raz,

  I would follow the recipes for the make closely. Do not deviate until you have mastered the cheese you are making. You will make many mistakes along your journey, some from inattention and some not your fault. It is a challenging hobby. If I were not challenged in my daily live, it would be to boring for me. Everyone makes errors from the new to experienced makers. Keep asking Qs, you will only become a better cheesemaker.

dc-k

Thanks for sharing your experiences with Caerphilly the resulting discussion has been very helpful for me as a relatively new cheese maker. Keep up the good work!

River Bottom Farm

The purpose of a washed rind is to provide a plastic like layer on the cheese surface that is breathable and inhostpitable to molds and other non desirable growths.
1) depends on the cheese and the surface pH. Some cheese will need mold and yeast to metabolize the cheese surface to neutralize the pH some to allow linens to grow properly. (Reblechon is an example)
2)Dry salting or salting the brine is common to stop the mold/ yeast and encourage b linens
3) surface moisture (and to some extend relative humidity) and some salt presence encourage b linens and then smearing them around the cheese surface daily during colonization. Then drying them into that plastic like layer after they have colonized for a while.
4)Vac bagging, waxing, bandaging, etc are your only real options without linens or you will end up with bloomy (moldy) rinds which if you are setting out to make that in the beginning is great otherwise...
5and 6)Taste wise you will have a more flavourfull/ full body cheese due to  the added air exchange and bacterial action on the rind of the cheese but this can be a matter of taste buds. Texture may be a little dryer than compared to wax or bagging due to more air and moisture exchange in natural rind method

If you do move to more vac bagging etc dont bag your emmental until after the warming/ swelling stage is complete

Raz21

Thank a lot Mike and River Bottom Farm! I highly appreciate all your answers.
Really useful information.

I will pay more attention to washing schedule, brine composition and humidity.

Two more questions:
1. If I would like to wash the cheese with a wine brine, what is the percentage of salt that I should have in the brine to avoid yeast? What would be the composition of the brine? What I used was 1/3 white wine, 2/3 water, and some salt, but not too much.
2. River Bottom Farm, you mentioned killing the yeast in the wine. How can I do that? Using salt?

River Bottom Farm

Should be able to kill the yeast with salt yes. You can actually saturate the brine with salt and b linens will still grow. You will just end up with salty rinds on the cheese. You will have to experiment for yourself to figure out the balance point where you can kill the yeast but not be overly salty in the rinds. Good thing is that you can get your wash started with possibly too much salt to kill yeast and then start adding water a little at a time to dilute the wash to desired salt level but retain the b linens in the wash. That wash can then be added to as needed and kept for a long time (let your nose be the judge on how long but around a year is not un-heard of)

Gregore

Yeast should not be coming in with the wine other wise you would have bubbly wine . What is coming in with the wine is sugar and yeast loves sugar  and yeast is every where in the air . Try a drier wine . Or do as others mentioned , just a brine .

  And the sour taste is from the acid level dropping below the  level for this cheese type

Raz21

Thanks a lot, guys!
Things are getting clearer now.

Now a have quite an issue with the pink rind that has developed on my cheeses. I tend to think that it is harmful.
I have added a detailed description here: https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,16974.msg129879.html#msg129879.

Please have a look and let me know what do you think.