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Thank you, Francois.  A wealth of useful information, and I'm retooling now.

"Phase of the moon" - must have been doing this until 4:00 a.m. this morning.  Methinks the goddess Artemis was not amused.

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So, if the milk was at 6.61, I should have just monitored to 6.55-6.5 (i.e., represents about a 1-1.5pt pH drop, as your 6.7-6.55/6.6), or just drop rennet in whenever reaching the 6.55-6.6, regardless of the starting milk pH? 

If you're using mother culture, for a tomme, I wouldn't even ripen it. Maybe for something like 5 minutes. But with the mother culture, you dump it in, stir around, and add rennet. You get a nice pH drop right away with the mother, so you can go to town.

Agree with Francois, I wash all my tommes with at least 15% wash. You can make a lovely cheese, ready for market in 70-80 days if you wash, and use an adjunct, and surface ripen, just like Francois said.

Nuttiness in a washed curd tomme is not primarily about the removed lactose, it's primarily about lactobacilli producing tasty amino acids and other compounds.

You sound like a lazy frenchman I know that adds 3-5% and then rennet right afterward.  I prefer to go with 1% and let some acidity develop, it feels less like cheating to me.

I realize now I was going off of your recipe, linux, but spaced I was going with a mother, and not a DVI, and so ripened for 30 minutes.  Another "duh." 

On the other hand, Francois, I did inoculate at about 1.25%, so it wasn't high enough to be in the "lazy Frenchman" category, yes?  Sounds like my primer pH was so low to begin with, indicating a pretty high LAB count, that 1/2 hour of "this" 1.25% was very different from 1/2 hr of a 5.0 primer 1.25% inoculation rate - is this reasonable?

The idea of inoculating with a strong primer component, and adding rennet immediately or almost immediately, or a lower initial mother inoculation, and slowing the initial acidification curve does remind me - forgive me, it's the only micro-oriented world I knew, before starting this - of brewing, where as I mentioned, sometimes we deliberately under-inoculated as we wanted some of the increased generations, and aerobic respiration by-products; others, seeking a "cleaner" profile, we made sure to inoculate with a properly high-rate, so the fermentation began with relatively less cell-budding and associated sensory by-products. 

This is close to what you're saying, yes, Francois - you prefer some growth in the vat, over pitching enough mother to immediately drop the pH to renneting level?

Depends on the milk... my tommes are 1% (.2% LH, .8% 4001), sometimes 1.25% starter. But the way I like to do it is high calcium (rennet ~6.55), and I push the moisture up (15-20% wash, uncooked) to make up for the higher calcium so the ripening is shortened. So the protein solubilizes after curd formation. It doesn't feel like cheating because it actually takes to longer to hit target brine pH this way (with the associated risk of microbiological offtastes from waiting so long in the danger zone), so I still have to baby them. And then I get good paste development by using PLA+MVA+Hansen's BC in a 90% RH, 52F. I push that rind to do its job, so the high calcium gives me good bones and then enough wiggle room during ripening that the paste is spot on.

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This is close to what you're saying, yes, Francois - you prefer some growth in the vat, over pitching enough mother to immediately drop the pH to renneting level?

The choice here is about casein solubilization BEFORE forming the curd gel. We talked about this briefly on the phone. Long, and slow tends to produce the best outcome. When you slowly use the lactic acid to break apart those colloidal calcium bonds in micelles, it will give you a very even disassociation pattern. And a better paste in the finished cheese because that rate of disassociation also influences the degree of casein hydration. It's a very, very important principle in cheesemaking.

Francois here has said he likes for the acid to act slowly on the caseins, and then add rennet when the right acidity is in the milk. That makes for a great cheese. I, on the other hand, often engineer tommes to have a very predictable shelf life, which I do by adding rennet right away at a higher pH, using the same pitch rate, and having very little casein solubilization before adding rennet. This, ordinarily, would take a long time to ripen, which I mitigate by my solution of increasing moisture content, and using both paste ripening and surface ripening adjuncts.

His approach is more traditional, more "honest". My approach is more suited to the business world because it sells more water and still makes for a great product. I don't think I've actually posted about my industrial methodology before. I still make a good number of very traditional, slow-ripened tommes for myself.

Also, I need that calcium because my goat milk is 3.8% protein, and in the summer when I make tomme, about 6% fat. So I like having a very solid calcium backbone in the cheese for this type of milk. I would make different choices if I raised Alpines or if this was cow milk. You have to work with the milk you have, some of what I say when I talk about my makes wouldn't apply very well to other milk.

Thanks, Pav.  I posted, but for some reason, it's not showing up.  Your further explanation helped clarify for me.  I also recall our conversation, thanks.  Basically, if I've understood correctly, your high pH renneting preserves CaPO3; you achieve curd, then, with this higher ca intact and only then solubilize the protein by the high-moisture washing.  If you didn't approach with a higher moisture content, you'd have a very long paste aging curve.  You also pick paste and rind cultures for their specific enzymatic properties (mostly, given the above method), yes?  You also indicate the higher moisture content typically engenders a bigger window for adverse contamination - particularly on a higher initial pH cheese like a tomme, yes?

Finally, milk protein and fat ratios are inversely proportional, and as you're in the game with the clever little impish fellows, you just need a higher Ca component for structure, particularly in the summer.  Yes?

Close, or ridiculously off-mark?

Edit:  Just wanted to say thank you to Pav and Francois.  As usual, the gift to transfer principles so clearly, graciously and well is something I don't take lightly, so I do appreciate it.  Yoav, apologies if I've commandeered your thread to an off-world track. 

I'll be checking in later on further replies.  As I will admit, I am diving into a family afternoon watching....um, the sport where guys in pads chest-bump and move in 10-yd drives.  GO PACKERS!  (Do I sound sufficiently American, now?  ).

Quoteonly then solubilize the protein by the high-moisture washing

No, only acid breaks those bonds. It's solubilized by acid, and the long time in the mold to build up that acid. My tommes are usually in the mold 8-12 hours.

QuoteIf you didn't approach with a higher moisture content, you'd have a very long paste aging curve

It would be longer, to be sure. I also rely on the internal bacteria enzymes, and rind enzymes to help.

QuoteYou also indicate the higher moisture content typically engenders a bigger window for adverse contamination

No, the high pH does that. From the regular pH of 6.7 all the way to 5.4 or so, it's a danger zone. During this range of pH, all sorts of bacteria can grow. Your listeria, enterococcus, coliforms, psychotrophs, etc, they can all grow. Unless your milk is good, they can cause off flavors. Tommes are not easy for this reason - your milk must be excellent if you want to acidify slowly.

Quotejust need a higher Ca component for structure, particularly in the summer.  Yes?

I feel like with my higher fat milk, it needs a good foundation of calcium for tomme specifically. I made a deliberate decision here and like the results better. Discovered through trial and error.

Acid solubilization: Sorry, right - H-CaPO3 exchange, correct?

Contamination:  I get the high pH issue; guess I was thinking that the higher moisture also makes a window for faster growth, generally - but I'm not at all sure I've remembered correctly here, or if so, I get that this is growth for all species - not just unwanted ones.  You have hit home for me the special diligence required here, or indeed for any high initial pH cheese.

OK, you got me.  I prefer learning this to watching pre-game.  (My family's outside...so I can steal a few more minutes before "freak about new learning guy" has to become "dad, just plain old dad.")

Right, what he said. 

I should have clarified.  The lazy frenchmen way comes from industrial camembert manufacture where it's slam bam thank you mam.  There's no ripening and the curd is cut at floculation.  It's very creamy with all sorts of captured extra moisture that increases profitability).  You'd think it would taste terrible, but it doesn't.  It's the same concept, less traditional but still gives a good product that is profitable to make.

As I begin to gain some traction on the why and how of this food, the methods  that can be had truly are really fascinating.  I see both approaches being discussed here, and though it's my intent to master fundamentals, this glimpse at more nuanced possibilities is really helpful.  Thanks, guys.

Francois, you got it exactly right. That's where I borrowed the idea and adapted it for tomme. I have mixed thoughts about it because I did it with a similar motivation - to help farmstead producers sell more water, and to push the flavor and paste development sooner, into the ready to sell at 80-100 days window instead of the 120+ days.  It actually makes for a very pleasant, very sellable cheese that will keep peak flavor at 34F for 4-5 months. And it's not like I'm using encapsulated enzyme extracts for flavor or bubbling CO2 through the milk for the solubilization. Maybe I've rationalized it too much. I have qualms about using science to engineer food, even if the methods and approaches are natural.

Paul, best to stick to the classic recipe I posted until you get the hang of it. Sorry for any confusion.

Quote from: linuxboy on February 07, 2011, 02:23:34 AM
Francois, you got it exactly right. That's where I borrowed the idea and adapted it for tomme. I have mixed thoughts about it because I did it with a similar motivation - to help farmstead producers sell more water, and to push the flavor and paste development sooner, into the ready to sell at 80-100 days window instead of the 120+ days.  It actually makes for a very pleasant, very sellable cheese that will keep peak flavor at 34F for 4-5 months. And it's not like I'm using encapsulated enzyme extracts for flavor or bubbling CO2 through the milk for the solubilization. Maybe I've rationalized it too much. I have qualms about using science to engineer food, even if the methods and approaches are natural.

Paul, best to stick to the classic recipe I posted until you get the hang of it. Sorry for any confusion.

Well, Pav, I know I could spend a lifetime perfecting a simple element of cheesemaking; but then, I think much the same could be said of anything worthy (something like the "1000 cuts" of Japanese swordsmanship - one simple stroke, forged, over and over a lifetime). 

I also know there is no art without surviving - something I have some pretty personal experience with, so I for one found this discussion really important, and deeply informative, both from a technical standpoint, and a philosophical one.

Whoa, this thread has gone nuts all of a sudden on this Superbowl Sunday; I didn't even have the chance to respond.

Francois - thanks! I didn't use much body development cultures because I was trying to let the milk speak for itself. I have gotten better character in the past with pasteurized milk and no body development cultures, so that's why I was disappointed so much by the result with this raw milk.  Secondly, I am still new to TA series cultures and trying to learn more about them. This was made in the middle of last year. I now do at least some kind of farmstead culture in my Tommes and Reblochon style cheese. I would love to get recommendations on TA cultures for cheese (consider that I never pass the 100F in my cheesemaking so I don't need it for thermophilic purposes). I am currently experimenting with TA61. Any thoughts?   As for surface development, I do work often with PLA in both Tommes and surface ripened and washed rind cheese but this wasn't what I was trying to achieve with this. I was looking for that mushroomy quality of Savoie style cheese without the b.linen aroma.  I since have developed much richer cheese.  Also, while I have your attention, what is your opinion regarding rind of Mycodore vs Mycoderm? and PLA vs ARN? What do you think of using Penicillium Album on a softer goat's Tomme?

ArnaudForestier - Someone will be annoyed with me here but I suggest to put the pH meter aside when practicing these Tommes initially.  Learn to feel the curd instead of trying to calibrate these pesky meters and waiting for them to give you a reading and then ask yourself if the reading is still correct an hour later if you haven't calibrated again. It's a bit like trying to drive in a new city with a GPS instead of looking out the window and learning the landmarks. It's a great tool for establishing consistency and troubleshooting but don't drive the cheese according to pH reading.  I have not missed one Tomme in over a year (and I made plenty) and never had to use the pH meter (except a couple of times to tune up experimental brines so that they matched the curd).  Try the recipe once without measuring and just trust yourself. It will really help you.

Boofer I am sure there are a few good fromagiers in WA state. Have you tried Whole Foods?  If you can't find Esrom, try finding the more readily available Port Salut. Esrom is the Scandinavian version of that French cheese. It's a stinky and rather sweet cheese.  You can also order cheese from Murray's or Artisanal. they really know how to ship it well.