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As a newbie to cheese making, I'm reading through many recipes.  I have made beer for many years though and know how to clean and sanitize equipment  .  I see this in just about all of the recipes:

QuoteSanitize all the tools by filling the pot with a few inches of water, and putting everything that fits in it, closing the lid and letting it steam for 30 seconds. You can also dip everything in a solution of 1 gal water with 1 tablespoon of chlorine in it. If using chlorine, rinse with water after.

The first (having some water vapor coat the utensils and pot) seems like it would be completely ineffective.  A steam autoclave works at high temps and pressures for 20 min for basic sanitizing.  The second (putting bleach on for a dip) is ineffective and can corrode metal, even SS.  Further, rinsing with tap water negates the sanitization.  I believe the correct contact time for that solution is 20 minutes, not a quick dip.

What is the point anyway?  If you are using raw milk, the step is a waste of time since the raw milk is full of bacteria and putting it into a sanitized pot is not going to make a difference.

Using pasteurized milk, well, supposedly that is germ free.  If it wasn't, pouring the milk into a sanitized pot is not going to do anything to the microbes in the milk.

If your pot and utensils have been well cleaned, can there really be a significant colony of cheese spoiling or harmful microbes on there ready to infect your milk before the added culture takes over?  I guess if you made a blue cheese then want to make a cheddar, you might have some blue mold around.  But I don't think the above, standard instructions, would help.  The fact people have been making cheese using this sanitizing regime tells me that the risk of infection from cleaned utensils is nil.  Since nobody is actually sanitizing anything. 

There are effective, non-corroding, no-rinse sanitizers out there like iodophor.  If you think this sanitizing step is important, I would use that or star-san to do a proper job. 

Beer is not cheese. For cheese, your primary concern is to kill pathogens. The secondary concern is to try to provide a sanitary environment so you can control flavor formation by deliberately inoculating with a specific strain. For beer, it is more about providing a near-sterile medium so that only yeast can take over. Steam is effective at killing pathogens, but not necessarily spores. That's why the steam idea is there. ~200 PPM bleach contact is also effective at killing pathogens. And rinsing with water afterward is a precaution for those who used too much chlorine (have seen it happen often at home). It's a practical guide, nowhere near sanitization standards, although you can achieve 3 log reduction with a 30-second steam. This isn't supposed to be 5 log+ reduction in home environments.

Bleach at 200 PPM may corrode SS, but is usually not a concern for the home user because of short contact time. Again, not institutional or lab standards.

Quotesince the raw milk is full of bacteria and putting it into a sanitized pot is not going to make a difference.

Yes it is. Ambient milk flora in the milk parlor is not the same as ambient flora in the make room, nor is it the same as the flora on your utensils. It's an added control and precaution. The above process would not be appropriate commercially, of course, but tends to be good enough at home.

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If your pot and utensils have been well cleaned, can there really be a significant colony of cheese spoiling or harmful microbes on there ready to infect your milk before the added culture takes over?

Depends how well they've been cleaned. Also, biofilm-related contamination is hard to predict, even good cleaning routines can miss it sometimes.

QuoteSince nobody is actually sanitizing anything. 

The word sanitize does fit. Sanitization is not sterilization. That sanitization procedure is not useless, more of a compromise for home use. Maybe a better word choice would be clean and disinfect. We're not autoclaving here.

QuoteI would use that or star-san to do a proper job. 

I feel like it's a decent middle ground to use basic steam disinfection or bleach at home for those unfamiliar with other products or processes. The standard is still detergent wash for cleaning, and acid or similar for the second step to disinfect. With dairy, there's also the consideration of milk stone removal during cleaning.

Wait, I just realized you're quoting one of my recipes. At least, it looks like my default text. If you have a better suggestion for a 2-3 sentence default text, please let me know. I'm always trying to balance industrial scale with home realities, so the word choice reflects that. Maybe I should write an article discussing log bacterial reduction and effectiveness using various techniques.

Those recipes are not for industry use as-is. Every licensed producer needs to develop independent cleaning/disinfection schedules, and have those schedules be approved by local inspectors. And ideally, every home maker does the same.

Hope my explanation makes sense. Always willing to change wording to improve clarity and effectiveness. Thx.

QuoteWait, I just realized you're quoting one of my recipes. At least, it looks like my default text. If you have a better suggestion for a 2-3 sentence default text, please let me know. I'm always trying to balance industrial scale with home realities, so the word choice reflects that. Maybe I should write an article discussing log bacterial reduction and effectiveness using various techniques.

LOL It is from your recipe.  I appreciate your efforts here and on your site.  But Hurst and Carroll and others generally have the same sanitation regimen.

While I will defer to you whether beer needs more or less sanitation, or even if the boiling a bit of water in a pot works enough; my argument is that there is a simpler way.  That the simpler way is more effective also. 

Yes, you will have to go to a home brew store or order it online, but iodophor and star-san, if used correctly, are much easier to use than dealing with boiling water.  That a decent dishwasher dry cycle will do all you need to do for cheese.   Since it is 100X easier to get beer ingredients than cheese ingredients  ; anyone who has a source for cheese stuff has a source for these sanitizers.

I think the bleach regimen right off should be scrapped.  Once you rinse with un-sterilized water, you have exactly the same pathogen problem.  You could rinse with boiled water, but what a pain it all is compared to these more modern methods or your dishwasher.  Most home cheese making equipment is basic cooking equipment that will fit in the dishwasher.

If I could make a suggestion for your website.  Maybe where you have this language, have a link to an article on what you think basic sanitation should involve and maybe even why.  You could explain where to get these better no-rinse sanitizers and maybe even a link to an advertiser or partner site.

Thanks, great points and very helpful. Maybe I should post more about what actually works for me instead of trying to anticipate people's situations, because if someone has a way to measure acidity, they should be at a point where they have a proper cleaning schedule. I use the classic dairy detergent + acid in two separate buckets and have never had a problem with this schedule for beer, cheese, or wine making. Acid product is similar to starsan, leaves a light residue making it no rinse.

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If I could make a suggestion for your website.  Maybe where you have this language, have a link to an article on what you think basic sanitation should involve and maybe even why.  You could explain where to get these better no-rinse sanitizers and maybe even a link to an advertiser or partner site.

This is really helpful, thanks, will do. I have not seen too much discussion in the dairy world of sanitation options, what they do, how they work, and how effective they are in terms of the actual n log reductions. I also haven't seen many discussions about the types of pathogens and how effective various cleaners are in killing them. Bleach, for example, is an inferior choice in many cases, like you note.

Reason I don't mind rinsing with tap water is because I like ambient flora. To me, there's such a thing as being too clean. In some cheeses, like in cheddar, it is not the starter culture but the ambient NSLAB that contribute a good deal of flavor. But it's not a best practice given the alternatives. OK, will make changes, thx.

I don't recommend dishwashers because for most plastic molds, the plastic is damaged by the high heat during the dry cycle. You can't clean Kadovas that way, for example. You can clean the cheap normal molds that way, but they have become deformed for me when I washed the molds on the lower dishwasher rack where the heating element is.

I honestly don't mind the necessary steps I take in sanitizing everything, even if I do them everyday-at the end of every make.  Necessary evil in life, as it were.  Or in this case, at least.  I do a lot of sewing, though I don't sanitize anything, I do clean my work area, everyday...only to start over again the next day.  My dad is a hobby mechanic & he also worked for Boeing for years, he's always been about work-area "policing" & I think, maybe I got into the habit of it from him.  Even if he would work in the garage for a couple of hours & clean for as long, he would do this religiously, every time. 

I don't use any solutions at home, apart from lysol & bleach.  We had a shingles scare here last year (both my boys got it!), so I was a sterile-maniac for a long time, still am.  I go thorough one bottle each of bleach & Lysol sprays every 3 days or so, depending on how active I am around the house.  More so, it seems since I've been making cheese.  I DO boil EVERYTHING every time I make, before I even open up boxes/gallons of milk.  I even bleach-clean all work area, including stove.  I worked at an Army hospital & my home cleaning pratices are probably superior to theirs.     As my husband says, "the flora can duke it out" after my make, rather than if there are any left.  (which there will most likely be, considering I can't really do anything about the air moving around my kitchn)    

I'm perfectly content with my practices, as they are, as I'm sure many home-cheesemakers are.  We work within our limits, if when we have to, I suppose. 

PS.  I have a clean-up checklist on the side of my fridge, it's laminated printed paper, that's almost an erase-board.  Of course, since it's only laminate, I actually have to spray it, to be able to erase it.  I have boxes on the sides, so I can tick off what I've already sanitized, etc.  This way, I don't forget anything, as I was wont to do, in the beginning.  I actually ended up boiling a water-bleach solution cos I forgot to sanitize my measuring spoons & a cup I use to check for flocculation. 

I was thinking of starting a new post on a question but my question is so simple so it may fit in here.

I use star san with good effect (well I don't get many bad affects). I understand people argue you don't need to rinse which is true, but the bottle says 'do not' rinse. I am wondering if there are any issues if you actually do rinse? I can't imagine there are. Its just I prefer to rinse no matter what. Am I breaching the sanitisation aspect of Star san if I do that? Or is it as simple as 'you don't have to... but you can'?

Silver

QuoteI am wondering if there are any issues if you actually do rinse? I can't imagine there are.

Strictly speaking, there are. With starsan, the goal is to leave an acidic residue on the surface. This is to kill microorganisms that may settle on food contact surfaces after you sanitize. The acidic residue is very small, I believe either under or just over 100 ppm. Have to look it up... but point is that it works better if you do not rinse, and if you use the right concentration, then it is neutralized by organic matter, such as juice, milk, wort, etc.

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Its just I prefer to rinse no matter what. Am I breaching the sanitisation aspect of Star san if I do that?

Not breaching per se, but it is sub optimal. You create the opportunity for threat vectors to gain a foothold.

Linux, Your info as always is exceptional. Thanks so much for the explanation.

Following on from that, does that mean star san in the prescribed concentration will not effect culture or bacterial growth as it will be neutralised, and also as it is such a small concentration it will not effect taste?

Exactly. It provides protection for that in between period... after you wash with starsan, the equipment is exposed to the air, and the surface dries out much of the time. With starsan, the benefit is that you can let it be and use it even after a few hours, because it continues to protect. Then as soon as you have food contact the surface, it is neutralized.