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Iratherfly, my way of going forward will likely be a combination of both sensory evaluation, and utilizing things like pH targets, etc.  As a brewer, if I was incredibly anal about targets - initial pH, pH drop in the mash, hitting specific gravity targets in the wort, and in residual sugar content, recirc clarity, etc. - I am also almost fatally a sensualist, and couldn't help going by my senses, if I tried.  So, I suppose I will likely find my way crawling from known areas into the dark by some combination of resting on the scientific benchmarks that have proven results - e.g., Francois' comment, to watch for pH drop and not absolute numbers when decided when to rennet - and "feel," such as Pav's comment on watching the curd while cooking, for matting together and firming up.  (To give credit due to both gentlemen:  a wealth of both scientific rigor and rounder, practical knowledge, and the gift to convey it).

I guess I see it as all technique; and as to technique, I lean on the shoulders of those who've gone before, to master the fundamentals.  A very orthodox approach to apprenticeship, something close to my sensibilities. 

Edit:  Francois, I looked into the OFR9.  LOL, it comes in 100 dose packets, at close to $100 U.S.  Think I'll be trying to experiment with PLA on this poor, acid-besotted cheese.

(thanks for the heads up on the culture, though - did get the spec sheet, interesting to see its components and specific uses).  Francois or Linux - you gents would know - in addition to a possible higher ratio of DH (when compared to the PLA), is the B. casei a lower-pH range tolerant brevibacterium?

It's good that you have the discipline to do that. It also helps that you are experienced with using pH measuring equipment (I am allergic to that thing, almost every time I use it I destroy the cheese waiting for it to show me a number and re-calibrating it 10 times because it's always off after the first measurement. I stopped turning on this $300 piece of equipment). Tomme is a wide range of cheeses and as such, it is very forgiving and can be done many different ways. Learning to feel the curd can do a lot of the work for you. Also looking at the milk and learning to recognize what it looks like when its time to put rennet or judge visually changes in curd acidity - that can do much of the work for you in the sensory department.

Is OFR9 back in production??? Where are you getting it from?  I thought it wasn't produced anymore!  My experience with PLA is that is grew on almost everything I put it on and was very resilient to different salting, pH and humidity conditions.

I appreciate everything you're saying, Yoav.  This was my first batch of anything other than fresh cheese, and it was almost like - well, I'll borrow Buck47's wonderful imagery (John, if you're reading....your pm floored me, I'll reply in a bit  ) - a billion sensory lights bouncing off, and all at the same time.  Extraordinary to watch the coagulating milk - because I've only done fresh chevre or other lactic or semi-lactic acid cheeses, I've always just renneted the miniscule amount, and left it alone, unwatched, overnight.  Wonderful to observe and feel all this stuff through its several stages, before my eyes.  So I definitely align with you on the importance of "feel" - have always felt this was, as well.  I guess my hope is that I can conjoin "both" worlds, sensory and the rigorous "benchmarks" approach, in a synergistic way. 

Based on  Francois' recommendation, I did look into OFR.  My local supplier can get it, but it's on special order only, and in 100 dose bags.  Close to $100.  Ahem....will be trying this first, gloriously failed cheese with PLA, and do what Pav recommended, age it and try it monthly, to learn the &^%#$ out of it.  But it's nice to learn of the OFR - very curious on its properties and optima.

Sorry again, Yoav, if I steered this thread to my own needs unduly.  Thanks for the thread, and your story in it.

Yea, it's quite something, isn't it? Very magical and interesting.  Just wait until your rinds begin to bloom. It's like some magic garden that grows against all odds. It's a fascinating process and it can get overwhelming the first few times (which is why I said that initially I advise keeping the pH meter off and just "watch the road").

Last I asked my supplier, OFR9 was off the market (some of these cultures go off the market and come back once in a while in rotation). I have never worked with it but wanted to. Not sure what happened with your PLA but I really think of it as a magical little culture. Perhaps if you buy the large amount some of us can split it? Is it in individual bags?

This thread was hijack-able for a while. This is cheese that I opened in August and finished long time ago.... not a current thread.

Oh, so far, nothing has happened with the PLA - just laid this  cheese in to dry last night, after 15 hours brine.  Plan on rind blasting with 2% salinity and PLA, by Pav's normal routine.  Will be curious how long it takes to begin a bloom, if at all, given the vastly-overshot pH drop. 

I will call and ask DC about the OFR, see if it's splittable.  My sense is, no, that it's a 100 dose bag..but good idea, if people were interested, will check into this.

Quick reply back, the OFR is only available in the 100dose sizing.  Too bad.

See attached PDF for some explanation on PLA, MVA, OFR.

Danisco is funny about what formats they release in what markets.  I get OFR9 in liquid form, by the litre.  I love the stuff.

Quote from: FRANCOIS on February 07, 2011, 08:43:38 PM
See attached PDF for some explanation on PLA, MVA, OFR.

Danisco is funny about what formats they release in what markets.  I get OFR9 in liquid form, by the litre.  I love the stuff.

Thanks, Francois.  I actually had that - what I was hoping for was some understanding of why, specifically, the mix in OFR does a better job working to deacidify, and/or why the sp. involved have a lower pH tolerance/optima.  I was curious if the b. casei is somehow different in this regard than the linens, or is it due, perhaps, to a higher concentration of the DH & geo in the OFR over the PLA, that more rapidly raises the surface pH, allowing the brevibacteria to gain a quicker foothold? 

Concentrations have nothing to do with it.  It is the strains.  PLA works best as a precursor to white mould.  It will continue to work on the surface as the white mould grows and after it dies back you will get a nice rustic rind.  OFR9 is best for washed rind cheeses since it has a complex yeast and mould mix.  It's not that one is a better acidifier or neutraliser or better anything than the other, they just work differently on DIFFERENT cheeses.  If I used OFR9 on a white mould it will act differently than on a washed rind. 

So the answer is there is no answer.  I'm sure Linux will happily give you a break down of each species and their ideal ranges, you can possibly draw your own conclusions from that.

Now that I think of it, that makes sense...I was going on the notion of "ratio" by the tech person from my supplier, who only offered this notion of ratios as the possible difference.  But obviously, any environmental setup will simply encourage whatever species optimally likes the environment.  So, uh, "duh," in other words. 

Thanks for the info on white mold v. washed rind.  Though I'm bummed, as the OFR9 sounds positively incredible.  Tant pis.

I am still curious on the species' difference, and what each optimally likes.  Pav?

Since I recently tasted my own first attempt at a raw milk tomme, I thought I would take the liberty of posting it here. Given that all of my other cheeses have been too hard and crumbly, and I could feel that there was less and less 'give' to this one, I caved in and opened it at 50 days. Raw cow's milk (but I believe homogenized) from Byebrook Farms in the SW Catskills, made pretty much per LB's recipe with C101 mesophilic starter, plus some squirts of Tomme de Savoie rind morge into the milk, and washed curds. Only very lightly pressed and brined for about 8 hrs.


The whole 2-lb cheese. You can see the little 'lip' at the top where the curds overflowed the mold. Still a couple of little bald spots there.


Cut open to reveal a pretty solid paste. It was not as elastic as I really desired, but sliceable and would bend a bit before breaking. The rind was mostly sprayed and occasionally wiped with morge made from all Tomme de Savioe rind. At the risk of confusing things, I did dip it in dark beer briefly one day after 2-3 weeks of rind washing, and I think it added a little color to the rind.


Sliced! I was pleased with the taste, I feel like I am at least getting closer to things I like, if not exacrtly what I shot for. It was not truly tomme-like, but had a mild, slightly nutty flavor with a strong Emmenthal or Gruyere-like note in it, followed by a slightly acidic bite in the finish, with a lingering kind of grassy aftertaste. Kind of 'alpine' I suppose? It reminded me a little of Drumm or Frolic  from Bobolink Farms, who have a stand at the Union Square greenmarket here in NYC. Very different from my other recent efforts, and I am glad for the experience of it.

I have another one, and I am going to try to let it age a bit longer. It's in my 'cave' mini-fridge, and the humidity there is probably mid-80s now. Would be interested in recommendation on how to age. Now that the rind is established, would vac-bagging be a good way to go to absolutely avoid moisture loss? I'm willing to keep it in the cave, but I really don't want to open it in another 6 weeks and find it crumbly and hard.

Also, for the remaining pieces of this - about what is the shelf life of a cut cheese of this type? Also, I am assuming that wrapping it in plastic and refrigerating is a reasonable way to keep it? Or should I ideally vac-bag the cut pieces too?

Wow, beautiful looking cheese, Brand.  My tomme is at 9 weeks, now, and nowhere near as deeply developed a rind.  Your paste looks really nice, as well - congratulations! 

Great looking tomme--congrats!

Good-looking cheese! That little lip gives the cheese character...makes it look like a pot pie. 

I would vacuum bag the cut pieces. They'll stay a lot fresher that way. I like that rind. I've got a Tomme just one week out of the brine and I'm trying to decide how to develop the rind.

-Boofer-

Quote from: FRANCOIS on February 08, 2011, 12:00:24 AM
Concentrations have nothing to do with it.  It is the strains.  PLA works best as a precursor to white mould.  It will continue to work on the surface as the white mould grows and after it dies back you will get a nice rustic rind.  OFR9 is best for washed rind cheeses since it has a complex yeast and mould mix.  It's not that one is a better acidifier or neutraliser or better anything than the other, they just work differently on DIFFERENT cheeses.  If I used OFR9 on a white mould it will act differently than on a washed rind. 

So the answer is there is no answer.  I'm sure Linux will happily give you a break down of each species and their ideal ranges, you can possibly draw your own conclusions from that.

Old thread - but now that I have a bit more experience, and the question of PLA was raised on another thread, Francois, if you're reading this - can you go into the why of this?  Why PLA is preferable as a precursor agent for white mould cheeses, and OFR9, for smear-ripened cheeses?  I know the OFR9 has a more complex blend of yeasts, but given that the PLA has both DH and geo, just wondering what specifically is at play that means this is both preferable for white mold cheeses, and not, perhaps, as good an agent as the OFR9 for a smear-ripened, rustic rind, as on a given tomme?

Secondly, for reblochon, in lieu of a vat inoculation of geo, candidum, linens and the SLABs, how do you feel about feel about just using PLA, both in the vat, and brine wash or, in the vat, with an SR3-only wash?