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Paul, this is just from my personal experience, but I feel like there is not much flavor difference between a 14-15 min floc and a 20 min floc. I did a tomme trial a while back to try and understand my tradeoffs and what I did was check for rennet amount only (to influence floc), and then did same rennet but at .5 differences at rennet pH. I found no major organoleptic differences (I didn't run it in a mass spec or sds page) between just minor changes in rennet so long as it was more than 10-12 minutes, and less than 18-20. Where I did find a difference is when I loaded up on rennet for an 8 min floc, or when I was less than 6.45 or more than 6.6 at rennetting. Beyond that, so long as I hit the drain markers (and I adjusted stir schedule to have moisture and drain pH coincide), and salt markers, it came out pretty much the same.

So now what I tend to do across the board for most cheeses, is about the same as Sailor. I will rennet at around 6.5, +- .1 depending on cheese (except most semi-lactics), and I aim for a time to floc of around 15 minutes. I feel like this gives me a good all-around balance of acid development while using a normal 1-1.5% inoculation, as well as make time and time in mold before brine.

I understand the need for authenticity for beaufort, but in my personal experience, it's been about the same so long as I've been around 15 mins.

I'm a bit late to this thread, but I use the recommended dosage of 90ml per 1000lbs of milk.
I use the attached spreadsheet to calculate my required ammount per make.

Don't want to hijack Steff's thread, just wanted to say thanks, gents, and to pose a couple scenarios as a reasonableness test.  Please bear with me, folks – not trying to be abstruse, just trying to get a workable set of actions going forward.

The given is my milk.  It is coming in pretty low, lately, a consistent 6.62.  It's also got its indigenous flora. 

Given these things,  I know I don't have as much wiggle room as I did with my previous milk: As I'm doing Beaufort, and given this meso flora, I know I have to do everything I can to get my thermos rocking as quickly as possible, to prevent an out of balanced tilt towards the autochthonous mesos.  It's difficult, I realize, particularly after reading Sailor's apt post: with a slow ramp up to thermo strike temp, my mesos have, I''m sure, been rocking already, like crazy. 

So, after chatting through some strategy with Pav, and because I know the mesos are in there working really quickly, I've been pulling back my usual ΔpH of 0.1-0.12, to 0.05-0.075, and pulling back my rennet dosing to 3.2 ml for 6 gallons milk to keep the floc time relatively constant (meaning, aware I've got some fast acting acidifiers, and aware I need a  ΔpH of at least  0.05, I "sacrificed" rennet dosing to keep my floc time relatively extended, a desired goal.  Hope this is making sense).

After further thought, it seems to me, that I really am pretty tied in terms of my culture dosings:  I can't slow things down by dropping back on the thermos, else my mesos will run the show, not something I want in my alpine, and though I could get my thermos in and working faster by shortening the temp ramp up, I don't know how fast I can get up to thermo SLAB strike temp, without risking frying my milk protein. 

So, I have to rely on "fixing" things at a relatively higher renneting pH, a quicker floc, and shorter overall renneting period. 

So far, with the new milk, if I've been happy with my curds (don't know whether it's more practice, or better colloidal Ca retention for some reason other than technique, but what I call the "dolphin flipper" elasticity of the cooked curds has been really, really nice), I'm still getting fast acid drops.  I now seriously wonder if I've always been shooting too low, perhaps, in rennet dosing (for comparison, Wayne, I never dosed more than 3.1ml for 5 gallons, and, wanting to dial it back for my current milk's acidity, 3.2 for 6 gallons).

So:

Let's presume a 6.62 again in my milk.  I think what I'll try for is a ΔpH for renneting of 0.1 to 6.52, and Wayne, based on your rennet dosing, trying again at a standard rate, or 4.64 ml/6 gallons.  I would hope this would bring me back from my 20+/- minutes floc to 12-15 min., yet still realize a gentler acid curve through the make and drain. 

I might also try (again, assuming a starting milk pH of 6.62) a ΔpH of 0.05, rennet at 6.57, but dosing a bit back on the renneting, say, 4.0 ml/6 gal.  I'd expect a faster floc than 20 min., but on the longer end of 12-20 min.; with a more manageable acidification than my 20 min. floc, and consequent longer renneting period. 

Sorry for the length, and any confusion from poor articulation of thoughts; and Steff, I apologize for any hijacking that this might constitute. I just find what Sailor and Pav are saying is really fundamental, an important key into underlying principles, with good, practical import, so I hope I've understood correctly.  (And Wayne, too, thanks, man, for the rennet dosing pdf – somewhere along the line I've just plain forgotten the "normal" dosing rate). 

Arkc - If I had a milk that was curding like a lactic, I would try adding some CaCl2. I have found that helpful with Holstein, but generally not necessary with Jersey. Worth a try though.

Paul - I always shoot for a ΔpH of .1 or somewhere around 6.5 at rennet. I find that any less acidity will not give as strong of a curd. IMHO 6.62 to start is not low. One other trick I do is to add starter well before the milk reaches working temp. If you are shooting for a start of 86F, add your starter at 76F (or whatever) so they can compete on a level playing field with the native bacteria. You may need to reduce the amount of starter to avoid over acidification by rennet time. The trick is timing and quantification so you still hit the same ΔpH. Again, this is especially helpful if you are heating milk too slowly.

I feel the need to point out that native bacteria in other parts of the world are on target with traditional makes. Even Propionic is an indigenous gut flora, so Swiss types can be made with little or no additional culture added. However, that's not necessarily the case with our cows. Our native SLABs and adjunct bacteria will definitely add to the complexity of a cheese but may not produce the desired results. So without microbial testing, I prefer to deal with known strains, with predictable outcomes. Customers may love a particular cheese, but they expect close to the same cheese when they buy again.

Quote from: SailorConQuesoIf you are shooting for a start of 86F, add your starter at 76F (or whatever) so they can compete on a level playing field with the native bacteria.

Great notion, thanks, Sailor, will give it a try.

Quote from: SailorConQuesoYou may need to reduce the amount of starter to avoid over acidification by rennet time. The trick is timing and quantification so you still hit the same ΔpH. Again, this is especially helpful if you are heating milk too slowly.

OK, I'll try to tease some combination of adding in my desired SLAB earlier, heating perhaps just a bit faster, and tweaking my desired thermo SLAB inoculation between 0.75% and 1%, to get on target. 

One thing I haven't done, and need to do, is measure the milk pH or TA, at other stages - between p/u and thermo strike temp.  I know what I have as a starting point, and what I get immediately after adding in the SLAB culture, but it would be helpful to watch the meso drop during heating up, too, to see just what kind of action I'm dealing with.  Great help, thank you again.

Quote from: SailorConQuesoI feel the need to point out that native bacteria in other parts of the world are on target with traditional makes. Even Propionic is an indigenous gut flora, so Swiss types can be made with little or no additional culture added. However, that's not necessarily the case with our cows. Our native SLABs and adjunct bacteria will definitely add to the complexity of a cheese but may not produce the desired results. So without microbial testing, I prefer to deal with known strains, with predictable outcomes. Customers may love a particular cheese, but they expect close to the same cheese when they buy again.

OK, gotcha, hadn't thought of this - thanks.  Pav and I have earlier traded some exchanges on this - I had thought to thermalize the milk, to get to some base threshold for consistency's sake, but because I'm truly blown away by the qualities of this milk - I've seen the paddocks, know what they're eating, never have I seen such an idyllic foraging setup - I decided I want to do everything I can to accommodate this milk, wrap my techniques, choices around the milk, rather than the other way around.  I have to do some thinking on this....it may mean abandoning an alpine, or thermophilic make, and just trying something that stays in the mesophilic range, with no added SLABs at all to see what I end up with.  I hope not, to be honest, because I'd love to see what kind of "Beaufort d'alpage" I can get, off of this native milk.  But I hear you, and especially down the road, if moving commercial as I intend, I may have to accommodate the ideal to the native hand I'm dealt.  We'll see. 

Thanks again, Sailor.  A ton of help, and very much appreciated.

Paul - you probably won't see much of an initial pH drop from the native bacteria because they are relatively few in numbers. That's why many traditional makes even let the milk sit overnight. Takes time to build up a functional population. When bacteria are actively reproducing, their population doubles every 20 minutes. That's fast but relatively insignificant for several hours if there is a limited population to begin with. And this opens up a whole can of worms for risk from coliforms and other contaminants. IMHO, slow acidification is rarely a good thing.

Regarding your thermo cheeses, the mesos still play a very important role including acid production in the beginning. Then yes, as you heat to higher thermo temperatures, they start to die off. But, at that point you will have millions of bacteria that release enzymes into the mix that play a very important role in proteolysis, long term aging, texture and flavor.

OK, gotcha, thanks, Sailor. Just wasn't sure what a lag phase should really look like (as I've told Pav, I do not know bacterias at all, only yeast behavior, from brewing.  Much the same, I'm finding out, but wasn't sure if it's possible to make an appreciable difference by changing the rate of heating up, in terms of the main meso metabolism.  Given I am a freak about getting back and getting it in the vat and heating, I'm guessing, basically, nothing much can be changed, except to get my thermos in early, as you suggested, and shorten the renneting period.

So, would you call this a reasonable approach, then: Presuming once again a 6.62 milk pH, dose in at 1% thermo SLABs, allow a ΔpH of 0.1 to 6.52; rennet in at 4.6 ml/6 gallons, aim for 12-15 min floc and a total of 36-46 minutes renneting; hope to cut at 6.45 or so, and hoop at 6.3, with a 12 hour drop to 5.4-5.4.  If I find I'm still screaming too fast on an acid drop during the cooking and drain period, back off thermo SLAB to %0.78, at the lowest.

I suspect this drain pH curve is just an ideal, and I won't achieve it, given my indigenous mesos.  But at least the thermo SLAB dosing and renneting aspect - would you call this a decent strategy trial, going forward?

Your strategy sounds reasonable, but you are throwing out some specifics that I see as variables. Therefore I can't give you a definitive yes.

For example - I can't presume a start of 6.62 or a rennet pH of 6.52. These are highly variable especially with raw milk. Your rennet dosage is variable for a dozen reasons that I can think of - type, age, milk, temp,..... Where do you calculate the 36-46 set time? If you are 12-15 for floc with a multiplier of 3 that would be 36-45. Minor difference, but I'm shooting for clarity. If you are still talking about Beaufort, I use a multiplier of 3.5. How in the world did you come up with a 0.78% dose of Mother Culture "at the lowest"? How would you even measure that? A gram scale?

The cut pH is not really significant. It's nice to know what's going on and confirm the dropping pH, but with the floc method you are going to cut at a given time - regardless of the pH. So you really don't have much control over that. The drain pH is a different matter entirely. That's a critical time when you remove the whey and effectively cut off a big part of the food supply for the bacteria. That puts the breaks on, doesn't stop, but slows things down at the right time. It's really simple. Take pH measurements and drain when ready. If the pH hasn't dropped enough, just wait. Same thing with hooping. So ultimately the pH curve drives the dynamics of acid production, but you are in the drivers seat and need to change direction at the appropriate turn signals. The native mesos are simply a part of the driving force, and do not change when to cut, drain or hoop. Think of it like driving a car with a 90 mile an hour wind at your rear. You may go faster, but you still take the same turns along the way.

Sailor, posted a response in the middle of the night that was unfortunately lost when the site crashed momentarily.  thanks, will repost later.

At the moment, I'm also dealing with another $%$$#$%#$# equipment issue - unbeknownst to me, my thermometer had stuck on 80F - so I kept heating the milk, couldn't figure out why it was taking so long to change (the therm crept 1-3 degrees - against tension), until it popped to 104F.  So if I had mesos issues before, god knows what I have know.  Fed up. 

Anyone recommend a relatively inexpensive, digital thermometer?

I use a Redi Check and have been extremely happy. It's a little slow to reach final temp but very reliable. I have 2 plus an analog dial for backups.

The first one I bought I paid $79.95. Here it is on E-bay for just $21.88 including shipping. This is a real steal so I would get 2 and you will have a spare.

Thermometer Link

Done.  Thanks, Sailor.  Boy, not my day.  Besides everything else, floc time came in - who knows?  8 minutes?  Walked away for 1 minute to type in data to my make log, came back, and it had already flocc'ed.  Milk=6.64, toasted the mesos at 105ish, so ripening was much slower - about an hour, but missed my target there, to, of 6.54 and ended up at 6.50; pitched rennet at 4.6ml/6 gallons, 8 minutes (could be less, could be slightly more...), floc. 

This one goes down to the make sump.  I'll eat it, but will be starting over as soon as possible.

Quote from: ArnaudForestier on May 18, 2011, 03:23:30 PM
Anyone recommend a relatively inexpensive, digital thermometer?

I have also had thermometer issues.  I have 4.  Only one boils at the right temperature.  If they aren't accurate what is the point.  On Sailor's recommendation I ordered the one on ebay.  But I am also going to order this
http://www.foodservicewarehouse.com/espresso-supply/11170/p380204.aspx

It can evidently be calibrated.  I like that.
Susan

Susan - Most all of the analog dial thermometers can be calibrated. The problem is that they are just as easy to UNcalibtrate. The only way I trust an analog is to calibrate it every time and that's a pain in the neck.

For analog meters, what I often do is calibrate, and then seal the nut with glue so it doesn't move. Makes for a trusty, cheap extra thermometer.

Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on May 19, 2011, 01:21:07 AM
Susan - Most all of the analog dial thermometers can be calibrated. The problem is that they are just as easy to UNcalibtrate. The only way I trust an analog is to calibrate it every time and that's a pain in the neck.

Sailor,
So the digital are less likely to be a problem?  So far I haven't had a digital thermometer that is correct.  I have 2 that will alarm at the right temp.  Which is nice.  But they aren't accurate.  I'm guessing if you use the one on ebay you find it reliable, so I ordered it.  But with these digital, if it isn't right it is just junk.  At least the other I can correct/calibrate.  That was my thinking.
Susan