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Interesting.

In Australia we are taught to pre-ripen the starter culture (for all cheeses) for an hour (in 1L of UHT milk) which is then added to the cheese milk vat just prior adding rennet.  No account is taken of milk pH at rennet.  I will now start to do this.

I guess in a training situation when time is limited they pre-ripen to ensure the day goes smoothly.

How important is milk pH at the addition of rennet?

NVD

Quotewhich is then added to the cheese milk vat just prior adding rennet.

For DVI starter? That's a good way to go.

QuoteNo account is taken of milk pH at rennet.  I will now start to do this.

You must take into account the change in ph from beginning to the point of adding rennet. Milk varies, so the change is a better tool than absolute pH.

Quote
How important is milk pH at the addition of rennet?

Crucial. Milk pH determines set time. For example, 6.5 milk sets up 15-20% faster than 6.6 milk. This is mitigated by using floc method, but floc is more about moisture (MFFB) consistency, whereas pH curve is about calcium balance.

So pre-ripen with DVI is good practice.

But don't add rennet to milk until a pH drop of (??) has been achieved?  This is a drop from post-pasteurisation to the post-addition of pre-ripened starter? 

I guess what this ensures is that there is a given amount of acid ready to affect all of the cascading processes from then on... (??)

The cut on a multiplier of flocc.

Is the pH drop of the milk after addition of the starter specific to a particular type of cheese?  If so what are the recommendations for say a washed curd tomme and a cam?

NVD.

Sorry, I meant to say " Then cut on a multiplier of flocc."

QuoteSo pre-ripen with DVI is good practice.

You must. Usually, at least 30-45 mins. You can add directly to vat, or do it in a bucket with UHT milk. I prefer bucket, then add premixed to vat, just like using a mother that way, no need to adjust the recipe and have all that milk sitting in the vat. Even more, I prefer priming and making a mother from DVI.

Quoteuntil a pH drop of (??) has been achieved?

Yes, amount depends on the cheese. Usually .1-.15.

QuoteThis is a drop from post-pasteurisation to the post-addition of pre-ripened starter? 

Delta between milk in vat to milk after starter addition.

QuoteI guess what this ensures is that there is a given amount of acid ready to affect all of the cascading processes from then on

Yes, it's a way to standardize the make, and also help ensure a good set. I mean, a set at 6.6 for rennet add for cheddar, it's not that great. A set at 6.55 or 6.5, that tends to work better with the acidity curve.

QuotepH drop of the milk after addition of the starter specific to a particular type of cheese?

Yes, alpine types you don't tend to wait as long, neither do you with tommes. a .05 drop is not bad then. But for bloomies and normal continentals, usually .1-.15

QuoteIf so what are the recommendations for say a washed curd tomme and a cam?

Washed curd tomme is .1, cam is .1-.15.

This is good stuff. I'm busy copying and pasting to my notes folder. Thanks, LB.

Very timely too since I'll be doing my Tomme tomorrow. 

LB: Did you get a chance to see my intended culture mix for tomorrow? Any adjustments needed? It's in your Tomme recipe thread.

-Boofer-

Try the mix and see what you get. There are many right answers

Yep, I kinda figured that after I'd thrown that query out there.

You pays your money and you takes your chances. 

-Boofer-

More tomme rind discussion...

I have been washing the rind of my washed curd tomme with a 5% brine and PLA every 2 or 3 days.  It is now 4 weeks since I made it (13/12/11) and I am looking for some guidance.

I am thinking I will now vacuum pack it for the next 6 months.  After I take it out I will oil it every couple of days for a couple of weeks to harden it up.

Any comments?

NVD

It's up to you, of course. What has happened by now is you likely have a great, firm rind on it, and your wash has gotten progressively more smelly. With this firm rind, everything the bacteria and yeasts produce, it does not penetrate quickly. Neither can molds and other flora establish themselves well. You likely have a very pretty color, fairly even and without excess molds or spots.

If you vac pac and age out now, it will save you some water, but you also will sacrifice a little flavor development when you stop washing. That's why alpines are washed with morge repeatedly, to help all the enzymes penetrate and create more complex aromas and flavors. But, you do gain some stability and save time when you pack.

So in the end, I think go for it and see if you like the outcome. After 4-5 weeks, it should be stable enough to age in bags. Before you bag, make sure the wheel dries out for a few days; stop washing.

Thanks.

I think I will vacuum pack it, then take it out 3 weeks prior to use and give it a wash with Mycoderm to finish it off.  Vacuuming in the interim will reduce my workload, I hope.

This is what it looks like now...

Quote from: linuxboy on December 08, 2011, 11:08:55 PM

Quotedry but flexible,

Wash 10-15%, drain @ 6.3-6.4, brine @ 5.4, cook to MFFB of 37%.

Quotefloc target?

12-14 mins, rennet @ 6.5-6.55

Quotefloc. multiplier?

2.5-3x

Quotenutty buttery taste

Use CHN19+ rhamonosus or paracasei + helveticus. FLAV, CR, LB, series and/or LBC 80/81 similar. Put .02% bulk equivalent MD series into evening milk after pasteurizing it.

Quotemaybe washed curd?

Yes, it will help to marry high calcium with washed curd for better sliceability.

Quotehigh pH drain 6.3? , high pH brine 5.4?

Yes, or higher on drain. Play around with it, you might want to do 5.3 on brine.

QuoteFD+TA061 FD+TA061+LH100+propionoc  for nutty flav?

Not enough texturing, aroma, and flavor adjuncts. You will not achieve what you want, unless you have native NSLAB.

Quoteloc+cut+cook+drain+brine pointers you can suggest to me

See above, it should be good for your paste and moisture. With a scald of 104F, rice size curd, it should take about 30-40 mins to reach right drain point.

Pav - despite my best intentions, I'm back to playing with my food.  If my recent rebs are receiving nothing but straight saline brine (2 linens, Geo15 and DH; MM100 as acidifier in the vat), I'm wanting to see what fun can be had, using the morge I blended for my beauforts - which I was extremely pleased with - in a tomme, of sorts. 

I'd like a buttery, nutty, probably creamier and moister tomme than elkato, with who knows what obtains from the morge.  Basically, planning:

-a MA4001 starter (missing the mesenteroides from the CHN19 per your recommendation above, but picking up the ST - and a proportional addition of LH100),
-some reasonable propionic, based on past usage;
-washed curd
-both vat inoculation, and morge wash, with what should be now native to my cooler:

Yeast: (14%)
DH (11.2%)
Geo 15: 2.8%

Arthrobacter (4.2%)
MGE: (4.2%)

lactobacillus-Casei rhamnosus: (2.8%)
LBC-80 (2.8%)

Linens (75%)
SR3: (21.5%)
FR13: (25.2%)
FR22: (28.1%)

Micro-Cocci: 7%
MVA (xylosum) (7%)

3,5X multiplier, shooting for high rennet and drain pH, as usual.  Basically, the obverse of a past Beaufort discussion - a soft Beaufort, if a Beaufort is a harder tomme (interesting and enlightening concept, folks - but then, we all know that of Pav). 

Best guess - what do you think would obtain, organoleptically (love that word)?  Perhaps here, too - just a straight brine, esp. given the "morge" vat inoculation?  Thus far, my rebs are progressing in a much more pleasing way - slower, drier, Geo and DH have made their appearance and there's every expectation these will be "dusty" and not "epoisse like."  I digress.  Just curious on your thought of straight brine, here, v. morge washing, given the above (and what you know of my cave).  I hope the discussion is helpful to others, as always.

Tired of reading abstruse Frenchmen, in the French rhetorical tradition.  Cider, bread, cheese, Hardy and of course, papa, John Fowles.  So give me a physical act....s'il vous plait.

QuoteBest guess - what do you think would obtain,

In my opinion, speaking from personal experience, the end result of these endeavors shall be.....


.... a cheese.

(traveling, will answer later)

 


Phew.  I thought I was going to have to get physical with this thing, and I'm in no condition. 



I did say "moister, creamier" for a reason.  Beauforts kick my .....

Edit:  I should add, there will be a small amount of LH100 as well, in the vat.