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Very useful and extremely interesting Arnaud! I have my notebook and pencil ready!
In one of my tryouts I did put some LH 100 and propionic to the vat( and LBC-80, and KL71 and Linens)
by the way how do you meassure percentages of starters?

I am keenly following this one!

I get a kick out of looking at the recipe and pulling it apart to try and 'see' what you want to achieve...

Could you please tell  me what the following are?

Yeast: (14%) - any particular one?
MGE: (4.2%)
FR13: (25.2%)
FR22: (28.1%)

Given the complex ingredients list (is there anything else you could add? ) what are you hoping to achieve with the LH100?

NVD.

I think this is way too much mixology... Tommes are simple and focused. They are all about milk quality, creative affinage and good technique. In fact, many traditional French cheesemakers don't even use starter culture, they do totally natural fermentation of raw milk, using nothing more than what mother nature has put in it (with similar attitude towards affinage). I have a more simplistic attitude:

So to start it off: you will want something that has the 3 foundation cultures: lactis, cremoris and diacetylactis. These exist in the very common starter culture mixes out there, including MM100 series, MA4000 series, Flora Danica, Probat 222 and Kazu.

Traditionally Tommes are made with farmstead culture (mix of thermo and meso). Of the cultures I mentioned above, MA4000 and the Kazu are such cultures -as they contain thermophilic strains.  The rest of the cultures will require the adition of a thermophilic strain such as TA culture.

For buttery notes: focus on the diacetylactis. Flora Danica and Probat 222 has a fourth specie (mesenteroides) that makes up a far more robust buttery flavor and aroma. You can also add more butter by doubling the already-existing diacetylactis in any of the cultures mentioned above; simply add a pinch of MD89.

For nutty notes: focus on the thermophilic part of the culture. Specifically effective is Helveticus, which is part of mixes such as LH100, Thermo C and Kazu. Helveticus has another useful application in promoting proprionic bacteria at later stages. This combination may give you more of the nutty-sweet character, (but may require a warm affinage stage later on, followed by normal cave aging again). I think someone here mentions that they wanted proprionic.

My suggestions for starter cultures for achieving your goal is therefore, to mix Kazu + a healthy addition of MD89. Optional LBC80 series culture (which was mentioned here by someone) may strengthen character without competing with any of the other species but it is a fairly expensive and you can get the same results if you just age the Tomme a few more weeks.

For rind: you can do a lot with natural rind. I would maybe put a surface yeast like KL71 and a pinch of Mycodore or Geo 15 to start it off and deacidify it but the rest can be produced in your cave naturally.  Here is something I did recently: I took wood chips from a local farmer (he sells those for smoking). These are from local Oak, Masquite and Cedar woods. I put them on a paper towel in the bottom of an aging container and moistened them heavily on a regular basis. The cheese was aged on a grille atop the chips and air was pumped into the box 24/4. Gorgeous colorful, mushroomy rind with tons of character - hooray to local terroir! Here's a photo:

Let's agree that the word "tomme" is itself a very loose term for a family of cheeses made in the mountainous areas of France; as Madeleine Kamman says, "tomme, toma or tome in patois, is the generic name given in the Savoie to all soft paste cheese not of the Gruyère type."  There are tommes in all milks; there are tommes with incredibly mottled rinds, tommes with velvet-smooth, gray rinds.  From previous discussions with Pav and Francois, my understanding is that you'll find mycodore more common in pyrenees tommes.  In the classic tomme grise of the Savoie, mucor predominates.  So it is a very large house of tastes and traditions, no one thing (unlike many other "houses" tending to stricter traditions).

I'll say, regarding my above posts, this is a morge blend I put together, for use in my Beauforts.  It was highly successful - my highest praise probably came from an elder Swiss woman, old school, and very particular about her gruyeres - visiting her daughter, said (not to me, but to her daughter) it's the best she'd ever had, which pleased me to no end. 

The blend came off of many hours of conversation with Pav, as well as my own research of French AOC, and English and French research on the rind flora of Gruyere generally, and Beauforts in particular.  I also wanted to simply play with my food, with the eventual hope I would create a "cave" that contained natural, ambient flora very close to something I'd hope for, were my cave in the Savoie.  As to the percents of this mix, they were simply my parsing - again, from discussions with Pav, also my best guess, off of research into these cheeses, and my own, on the properties of each of the listed strains.

Now, that being said, I've wanted to play with something of what I'd see in a Savoie farm - doing soft cheeses in winter, going to tommes year round, and Beauforts on spring and summer milk.  Controlling, really, vat technique (acid, moisture, etc.), with few other changes.  Of course, I no longer have commercial intents, so I don't really care what happens, so long as the cheeses are pleasing to myself, my loved ones and friends. 

So - that means my (in)famed "morge blend" may get a lot of action, across - and these are in quotes for a purpose - "reblochon", "tomme" and "Beaufort."  What Yoav is calling "too much mixology."  (we've had this discussion before, on Beaufort).  Or, it may not.  Right now, for instance, my "rebs" got Geo15, DH, 2 different linens (SR3, LB) in the vat, and are receiving a straight brine wash otherwise.  I presume the cave, established now, will do the rest. 

Thank you Yoav! extremely useful info! I think that Arnauld pointed out the main difference in our approaches is that I, (I think that Nibbin also?) am trying to start a small scale commercial creamery in my brand new sheep dairy.  so all the time and effort spent learning and working all night, is going thowards gathering a few consintent repeatable recipes of products that are appealing to the costumers in my area (also brand new hobby/obsession) 
This of goal of course will take a long time ( I just began 4 months ago) so all the input is greatly welcome 

Quote from: elkatoby the way how do you meassure percentages of starters?

Sorry, Elkato, missed this originally.  If you're asking how much mother culture I use in my alpines - and the nod for this approach goes to Sailor Con Queso, with Pav's add'l contributions - I tend to stay at around 1% bulk equivalent, the day of the make.  This affords me a balance between a slow enough ripening period and, generally, a decently slow acid curve - I can control the entire process, keep the parameters of play wide enough so I can rennet and press relatively high pH, preserve Ca, give the elasticity I shoot for - a balance between this, and too long a ripening window, in which unwanted beasties have a chance to climb aboard and thrive, making unwanted contributions.  Just my personal experience that coming in at 1.5% or better, and everything takes place too quickly, for my comfort.  I tend to a "slower is better" preference, which I know Pav has mentioned periodically. 

I must mention that I have that luxury - again, whereas I once was working very hard with an eye to eventually doing this commercially, I now have all the luxury of time in the world, to do as I please.  I think it was Sailor who once made this point - yes, slower is "better," generally; but there's also a reality of finite time and resources to deal with, when one is doing this for a living.  The bear with all of this - as in most things - is that there is a tradeoff, and one must make choices according to one's needs and wants, which are often, unfortunately, in something like a zero-sum game. 

Is this what you were asking?

Paul and I had this discussion before.

Quote from: ArnaudForestier on January 15, 2012, 02:13:39 PM
Let's agree that the word "tomme" is itself a very loose term for a family of cheeses made in the mountainous areas of France; as Madeleine Kamman says, "tomme, toma or tome in patois, is the generic name given in the Savoie to all soft paste cheese not of the Gruyère type."  There are tommes in all milks; there are tommes with incredibly mottled rinds, tommes with velvet-smooth, gray rinds.  From previous discussions with Pav and Francois, my understanding is that you'll find mycodore more common in pyrenees tommes.  In the classic tomme grise of the Savoie, mucor predominates.  So it is a very large house of tastes and traditions, no one thing (unlike many other "houses" tending to stricter traditions).

Totally agree, I too look at Tomme as a generic platform for cheesemaking rather than an actual specific cheese. My mere suggestions are meant to simplify the process and create a basic focused cheese where the cheesemaking process can be tested and perfected before going deeper into what I call "mixology" - use of a wide variety of cultures that are sourced from the ground, plant and animals of different world regions and get them to coexist in one cheese to achieve a desired flavor, texture, appearance or aroma.

Paul,

Quote from: ArnaudForestier on January 15, 2012, 02:13:39 PMWhat Yoav is calling "too much mixology."  (we've had this discussion before, on Beaufort).

that was not meant to offend you or second guess your mix. My thought process is that one may be better off first making a simple Tomme with simple adjustments of cultures to tune it up a bit, so when they are confident about it and taste the change they can start using the more sophisticated culture adjustments slowly but surely, making small adjustment in each make until they get to their desirable goal.  My feeling is that venturing straight into such complex mix may leave the cheesemaker wondering which strain did what and why, - rather clueless about how to adjust it (unless the cheesemaker is extremely experienced). It also may requires a library of rather expensive cultures in the freezer.

The step-by-step little-at-a-time methodology is not my idea, it's an industry best practice that I have learned from master cheesemakers far more experienced than myself.  I was amazed to see what they can do with next to nothing in terms of cultures to get the most out of their natural milk and affinage conditions.
In other words, I am not against your mixology, I just think that there are a few steps to get there.

Also, it is worth asking the question of whether you are trying to make your own original cheese with your own milk, environment and circumstances, or are you trying to make a replica of a cheese of another place, milk, environment and circumstances. There is no wrong or right answer to this and both could be equally wonderful or horrendous failures, but answering this question helps to clearly define the design principles of the specific cheese that you are embarking upon making.

By the way, Mycodore is cylindrocarpon, a fungi from a large family of plant and soil pathogens that is very common in Savoie cheese. In particular Tomme de Savoie and Tomme Crayeuse. You can find in in Pyrenees cheeses too but it grows less on them because they are drier and the weather is typically hotter. My suggestion was to use it as a starter for rind activity because it's rather neutral and can work with variety of flavor and aroma profiles, no matter where you take your rind to. It can grow out of control but can be fought back with competing geo

Yoav, I'm certainly not offended.  I would just caution against sweeping statements, e.g., "way too much mixology," when these are just approaches, among many.  We indeed have had this discussion before, and if folks are interested, I'd be glad to find the series of posts discussing same.  I would also argue that one can achieve both transparency, and a complexity of flavor by an interesting use of cultures, derived from research.  One can also go totally native, for an equally interesting result.  I certainly feel very happy with using Ayshire raw milk, with a Beaufort that in my opinion, hit a home run of both transparency, and depth of flavor from the morge blend I worked on and my process in using it. 

I'm aware mycodore is a cylindrocarpon.  I cannot speak authoritatively on mycodore and regionality - have not read much original research on mycodore, much less, mycodore and the Savoie (v. pyrenees and other cheeses).  Just going off something said once by Francois, whose opinion I very early relied on (and continue to respect):

QuoteMycodore and Mycoderm are the yeast and mould used in Pyrenees style cheeses.  In my old cheese factory I made a goat tomme that looked very similar to that one. 

I was pretty green then (still am), and perhaps I over-read his comment to mean, it wasn't common in Savoie cheeses.  I think an exchange with Pav, as well, led this way.  I could be wrong - my memory does have some lacunae. 

Ultimately, I say, play, play, play, and see what happens.

FWIW, I started my Tomme #5 ten days ago with the following:

• 1/2 tsp MA4001 (LL,LC,LD,ST)
• 1/16 tsp LH
• 1/8 tsp PLA
• 1/32 tsp Mycodore
• 1/16 tsp LM057

I'm washing with a simple 3% brine this time around...nothing fancy. With this cheese I'm just aiming for a simple natural rind as opposed to earlier "complex" rinds that developed.

My previous effort used:

• 1/4 tsp Kazu (LL,LC,LD,LH)
• 1/16 tsp TA61
• 1/8 tsp PLA
• 1/32 tsp Mycodore

So not a lot changed. I just shuffled the LH out of the Kazu and put the ST(TA61) into the MA4001. The significant change was adding the LM057.

This morning when I washed the wheel there is a fine white bloom coming on, presumably from the Geo and the Mycodore.

-Boofer-

Thanks again Arnaud! what I meant about measuring starters was (badly phrased question) about your morge recipe which you describe with very exact quantities (percentages) of the different yeasts-molds. I made an interpretation of a Comte and spent lots of time combing through Pav's explanations on how to make one(morge) but I had only bits and pieces of it, and your list sheds light on how to make one.
your explanation on quantities of acidifying cultures is also helpful since in the small scale recipes everything is in tsp.. just one thouhgt this 1% bulk is also for freeze dried packets?
I should add that my homestead dairy enterprise is not my main income so making it work is not life/death nevertheless I hope to do so, and being able to market a quality cheese (my own interpretation) with my milk will be a large part of the reward.

elkato, both of Boofer's combinations here are perfect for getting a simple Tomme with nutty, buttery essence and a classic Savoie style rind.

Paul, this wasn't meant to be a sweeping statement (though reading my post I can see why it looked like that). I simply meant to say that this is a very complex mix and there is a simpler practice of creating a great core make first, then advancing towards this sophisticated "mixology" step-by-step rather than starting out with it. 

Raw milk is a gorgeous lively substance.  It is precious, rare and tells a great story. I personally feel I awe it the respect of telling me its story before I render any major manipulation. It's sort of like tasting the food on the plate in front of you before you add salt and pepper to gauge how much it actually needs -if any. (eh, ...it just takes a lot longer!) Know what I mean?

I have nothing against cultures, in fact, I regularly test the limits of all of the ones you mentioned: mycodore, mycoderm, MVA, PLA, ARN, different geos, linens and PCs, CUM, KL, R2R, Shermanii, LBC and lactic bacterial mix galore. You name it - I have it in my freezer ready to go. The only difference is that rather than prescribing a mix which is assumed to be right for my milk, I test and add a little at a time, until the natural milk activity + my augmentation of cultures  = the results I seek. After all, your milk and my milk may be entirely different if they are from different animals in different conditions with a different diet and even the local plants and yeasts are different. Why treat them the same?  I hope I explained myself better now

Thanks Again Yoav! One of the biggest challenges I have is that by law in Mexico now I have to pasteurize my milk, for now they don't even have the 60 days OK thing, so that is why I am bent obsessed in finding and trying the best combination of cultures that can give me an acceptable flavor profile (many kindly recommended in this thread!)
Boofer in your recipe you mention "natural" rind but in the make you are adding PLA=Brevibacterium linens Arthrobacter nicotianae Debaryomyces hanseni  Geotrichum candidum plus mycodore so isn't the plain 5% brine just moistening the rind so all of this added mix of bacteria/mold/yeast can grow?
one more question is it OK to call a member by his "real" name once you know it, (more personal/friendly) or is doing that "blowing his cover" of anonymity in the forum?
By the way my real name is Luis.

Thanks for the lively discussion as usual. A few thoughts:

- That blend for morge is decidedly not too much mixology. It's expensive, to be sure, but not out of line... for a morge. After it settles itself out over a few months, it should make for a lovely blend.
- What I find more challenging is the use of morge on tomme... which is not traditional.

Here's how tomme generally might work IMHO, if we're trying to stick to something resembling traditional sensibilities and motivations yet achieve softer paste and butteryness.
- Lower fat than what whole milk offers, more like the milk for comte.
- a moderately high moisture level, using 3/8"-1/2" curds and 3x floc, depending on  the milk. About 40-42 MFFB
- use molds for buttery effect (IMHO, a morge when used with a wash schedule like a beaufort will result in excess proteolysis)

So it's like Yoav said... start with excellent milk, rely on some diacetyl strains for more flavor, and adjunct with a known strain of something to add texture and flavor, like helveticus or paracasei. Or rely on native mesophilic lactobacilli.

What boofer posted look like decent mixes for a try.

For the rind, I think it is best on a tomme to wash or dunk a few times to inoculate, and then leave it alone. Let it grow out and die back, then brush back and do a few more washes for appearance and rind management. Once you start a complex succession on a rind, I've found it best to let it do its thing... anything else, and you're constantly fighting the cheese and not working with it. As for the rind mix... morge would be OK, and generally, molds work very well, as do mold/linens or mold/micrococci blends. They will give a proper paste and more flavor within 60-90 days, appropriate for a tomme

Yoav, I think it's sometimes hard online to understand each other.  We've had this discussion in the past, and I do appreciate your approach - as mentioned then, having cooked French food over the last, what, 40 years or thereabouts, the "single-variable", systematic manipulation was my way forward, as well.  As to the morge I developed, clearly an engineered mix, as ironic as it seems, it was with an eye to eventual economy - to develop a cave with this diverse blend, and then rely on that mature cave, as any fermier maker.  While I cannot agree that the use of complex flora necessarily "masks," for want of a better word, the transparency (a desired thing) of a good milk - after all, the biodiversity of fermier makers is mapped, and known for its incredible range - I do think it's a shame to "kill" a raw milk, by poor make technique and excess manipulation.  Your tommes, above the wood chips, look gorgeous, by the way.

Thanks, Pav, as usual.  I think I'll try a tomme, using the morge as an initial wash, then leave it alone - again, an experiment to see 3 cheeses in one cave, as if it were, actually, on an existing farm, across the seasons.  The morge is heavy in yeasts and linens, however, not molds (the Geo is yeast form), so we'll see what obtains. 

Quote from: elkato on January 16, 2012, 10:54:27 AM
Boofer in your recipe you mention "natural" rind but in the make you are adding PLA=Brevibacterium linens Arthrobacter nicotianae Debaryomyces hanseni  Geotrichum candidum plus mycodore so isn't the plain 5% brine just moistening the rind so all of this added mix of bacteria/mold/yeast can grow?

Maybe the word natural is too generic. In my mind (and limited cheesemaking experience) natural conveys a meaning such as what a cheese rind would develop in a genuine cheese cave environment where the cultures and flora have developed over a broad expanse of time and use. I don't happen to have access to one of those genuine caves. All I have are two small (4.5cu ft) refrigerators that I have been using for several years now. There may be some residual flora attaching to the inner walls of my caves from previous makes, but I give each new cheese a start down the path with a combination of cultures derived from the combined wisdom on the forum (thanks, guys!).

And yes, the 3% brine wash helps maintain a moist environment for the linens, geo, mycodore, etc. to take hold, but it and the washing/brushing also act to reduce the incidence of unwanted molds, etc.

-Boofer-